Local vs Big Box - no specs?

Ok, I've taken the advice of everyone on here and am comparing several places for my new carpet. First, I went to both Home Depot and Lowes. Without getting into a discussion on the big boxes, I was happy to find that both supplied some key data on the back of the carpet: weight, twist, density, material. I learned, mostly through the help of this forum, read those key numbers. It really helps me judge the quality of the carpet. So, when I finally went to a well known local carpet store I wasn't surprised to find a better sales experience, but I WAS surprised to find no helpful data on their carpet samples. I looked at each one and found only face weight and their own rating for high traffic, etc, using a scale of 1 to 5. So, feeling so educated (thanks everyone!) I asked the salesperson about the density and twist numbers and he gave me a vauge answer, pointing me to the 1 to 5 scale rating instead. I feel I can trust this place, and I think they have good quality carpet. But I feel like I can't spend this much money, or know what I'm really buying, without knowing: - material - face weight - density - twist Am I overreacting or just playing it smart? Are they trying to be tricky when they dont show the numbers? SHould I be wary of them? The local stores may have the same or better carpet. Because they rely on the local salesmen/peddlers/glad-handers, they rarely have the information or use it if they have it. The big bad boxes have semi-trained sales assocites, but the manufacturers recognize this and provide a wide range of technical data and back-up, support and assistance to make the associates more effective. They buy more carpet and get better support and make the information readily available. If you ask the right questions to a local store, they should be able to provide the answers you need. If they don't have it, then they may be selling ends and obsolete products that may not offer complete support. Carpet ratings 1 to 5 are used by some manufacturers. The higher the number, the longer the wearability. Learn more here: http://www.carpet-rug.org/residentia...nce-rating.cfm If the sales person can not provide you with the information you need, then he or she can call the manufacturer to get that info for you. A good sales person should know what the carpet material is. Density: This refers to the amount of fiber that is in any given area of the face of the carpet. Carpet that is dense will wear better than carpet that is less dense. You can visually test this by folding a sample of carpet in half (so the backing of each half is touching) - then look at the fiber along the fold. A carpet that shows more of the backing will be less dense than one that reveals less of the backing. Face Weight: This term also refers to the amount of fiber (per square yard) that is in the face of the carpet (total weight less the weight of the backing). However, this is different than density because tall, less dense tufts may have the same face weight as short, dense tufts. Short, dense tufts will be more resistant to wear and matting. Twist: The number of times the fiber is wound around itself. You can count the twist be looking closely at a tuft of fiber and counting the number of twists you see. A twist of 4 or more is good for medium to high traffic areas. http://www.carpet-discounts.com/constructioni.html Thanks for this feedback. Confirms what I was thinking. And come to think of it, this guy wasn't their main floor salesperson. So, I'll go back and ask them for the actual numbers. If they seem like they're hiding them, I have my answer. But if they provide the numbers, then I can compare apples to apples. Thanks!! That is just it with most all flooring. They don't want you to be able to compare apples to apples. Most go for the low price before they even think about quality or durability. Just make the sale on the lower price, and live with the fires that get started when expectations are not met. Yes, you are correct. I just came back from my 2nd trip to the local store. Again, very nice sales people. So, when I again asked about the specs they were very vague. Before I thought the person just didnt know. But now I'm pretty sure they werent trying to swindle me, they just don't want to give them to me. AND---neither do the manufacters! Here's what happened: - I was upfront and said in order for me to compare apples to apples I needed to see the specs, specifically, face weight, twist and density. response, oh, well most of the samples dont have that information. Im like, I know, but can you get it for me? oh sure. But at the end, when I asked for it, she said I would probably have to get it from the manufacterer, they would have it. I'm like, fine, I'd rather check out their website while I'm at it. So I go to Shaw's website. nothing about these numbers ANYWHERE! so I call them directly. I get someone who says she could give me the numbers but I needed the exact style. Unfortunately I left my notes in the car, but I told her the one was Kathy Ireland collection, cut pile, and it was the Platium level. Should've been enough. Nope. Its almost like they didnt want me to know these. I check Mowhawks website and the list face weight only. So, in the end, I recevied prices from them and what looks to be really good carpet with the MFRs OWN rating scale on a 1-5 for durability (ex: high traffic). If I cant get the info I need to feel comfortable, I will wind up going to Home Depot or Lowes. Originally Posted by bheron If I cant get the info I need to feel comfortable, I will wind up going to Home Depot or Lowes. That would be a bad choice! They are even less clueless and customer service is non-existent, before and especially after the sale. With those two, the cost of installation, is already added to the carpet sale price, they then offer you a bogus marketing scheme of the installation at an extra to low to be true price, to get you to bite. Most independent stores can beat the big boxes on material cost, if you can find an apples to apples choice.:moonface: i would go with the local store..them being unable to produce the specs is most likely from them not having it or just not used to someone asking it. I would go with one that is the highest traffic rating that fits your budget. Most if installed correctly will have a manufactor warranty. Big box stores have install included in prices..thats how they can get away with 200 some odd dollar install for whole house. Thanks for the input. I have more info from the MFRs. But first, to your points above, and service aside, isnt the best way to determine the quality of the actual carpet im buying from the Weight-Density-Twist numbers? I know there are many other things to consider in the overall purchase, but Im talking just the product. You have: - material (nylon, etc) - weight - twist - density There are things like backing, heat press or something like that. But, if I have the above 4 items, I should have a very, very good idea of the product itself, right? So, once I have that, then I can evaluate the prices, the other costs and finally the risks/benefits involved in going with the bog box or local installer. But I can't make that last choice without first purely comparing the product apples to apples. Thats where Im heading. Let me know if you disagree. Ok, with that said, I needed to call back the local installer to first get the style numbers for both the Shaw and Mowhawk brands. They were able to get that for me. So, next I went to the Shaw website for their contact info and was pleased to find they had a live chat. It worked. I quickly was able to get the specs for both styles numbers I gave them. Next, on to Mowhawk. I went to their site and dialed their number. First person I spoke with was nice but had to transfer me. Not, however, after first getting my full name, phone number, and zip code. Jeeze!! Upon getting transferred, ready for this, I'm told by another nice person that, oh, we can't give information out. WHAT!? yep, even though I had the style number, she said, we need your installer to call us (or fax us) with the number and then we'll release that info to them. Im sorry but there's no way I'm buying a Mowhawk carpet. My purchase comes down to both quality and convenience - finding the right mix. people like to bash the big boxes and say they provide bad service and it will be a headache in the end. but here's a rundown of my experience with all of them: 1) Home depot: - first trip to store checked out samples - briefly interacted with salesperson - told about specials - wrote down specs for all carpets i was interested in - wrote down other costs for installation, removal, padding 2) Lowes - exact same as Home Depot 3) Local Installer trip #1 - browsed samples with no specs on them, only a 1-5 rating by the MFR - nice interaction with the sales rep who followed me around - asked for specs but was told he didnt know them - wrote down prices for all carpets i was interested in - wrote down other costs for upgraded padding and removal of carpet - phone call to MFR #1 (Shaw) with no result - phone call to MFR #2 (Mohawk) with no result trip #2 to installer a week or so later when I had time - again, nice interaction - asked for specs and was told again to go to MFR - wrote down exact make and model names - phone call #3 to MFR (Shaw) and learn I need a style number - phone call #4 to installer to get numbers (about 5 mins) - phone call #5 to MFR (Shaw) and finally received info - phone call #6 to MFR (Mowhawk) and learn in the end, I can't get the info So, in the end: Big Box: 1 trip each Installer: a total of 2 trips over a week and a half, and 6 different phone calls in the end to give me about 80% of the information I need to make my decision! Now, I understand I will probably get better service and less hassle from the Installer whom I can meet ahead of time vs. the one from the Big Box who will show up and disappear. So far, the installer has been a hassle up front. Is it worth it? Im not sure it is! Finally I will compare pricess, apples to apples of the carpet I have information on. Shaw's helpline wouldn't know the carpet based on collection or warranty package. Those are both exclusives of Carpet One, not Shaw. (Kathy Ireland and platinum) And anyone who works at Carpet One is not given the technical information you are requesting. They would have to call in to their rep to get it. As far as Shaw's reference scale- 1 through 5. It is not completely trustable. They do not make a single 1 or 2 star product according to their scale. There garbage carpets start at 3 stars. Also the have long, fat cable carpets made of polyester with a 5 star rating. What that star system is showing you is warranty- nothing more. What is it exactly you are comparing? Shaw's helpline wouldn't know the carpet based on collection or warranty package. Those are both exclusives of Carpet One, not Shaw. (Kathy Ireland and platinum) And anyone who works at Carpet One is not given the technical information you are requesting. They would have to call in to their rep to get it. - Thats amazing. HOw do people buy something they dont know everything about? Its like buying a car w/out knowing what kind of engine or gas mileage it has. I guess something matter to some people more than others. Thanks for the input on their scale. I would never trust any scale that comes from the party selling the product anyway. What is it exactly you are comparing? - do you mean what actual carpet brand and syles? Originally Posted by Carpets Done Wright That would be a bad choice! They are even less clueless and customer service is non-existent, before and especially after the sale. With those two, the cost of installation, is already added to the carpet sale price, they then offer you a bogus marketing scheme of the installation at an extra to low to be true price, to get you to bite. That's a little derogatory, isn't it? I happened to work at HD, in the flooring department, and if someone had an issue, we would deal with it until they are satisfied. If they had a specific technical question, I would do my best to answer it, and if I couldn't, I would call the manuacturer directly with the customer sitting right there. To say that they are clueless is being a bit ignorant. Often times, a customer would grab anyone in Orange, even if they didn't even work in the department and expect them to know everything. How could someone expect an employee to know everything about the 100,000 products in the store..... I have been in many many tile/carpet stores and their employees did not know about their products, so it's not a big box issue. Also, the prices for our carpet did not go up when we and Lowes went to the $199 whole house install. Of course they will market the installations to get people to bite, how else would you get customers and profit? Yes what carpet are you looking at buying? Your 4 things (fiber,density,face weight,twist) tell the most about a carpet. They are the simplest for anyone to understand and they are quantitative. But there are intangables that affect each of those. Different types of nylons, construction of the nylon, shape of the nylon, how the nylon was dyed, quality control of the mill, how it was bulked, how long was the twist set and at what temperature, etc... There are many more. Also each style of carpet changes those numbers. A plush carpet's face weight will be higher than the same quality frieze. Where as a frieze will have a higher twist. Both may last the same length of time. One may look newer longer just based on the type of style. A B+ frieze will look newer longer than most A+ plush carpets. For this factor alone, it is helpful to find someone who knows how carpets act and what you expect from them to match you to what you want and need. You can find all the best numbers and then get a carpet that shows vacuum marks that drive you crazy. What good did comparing numbers do you? I have had several engineers that do this. They are technical guys and think they can choose their carpet better than someone that is experienced with carpet if they know those 4 magic numbers. I'll give one other example. I used to have a Milliken brand carpet in my living room. nylon, 24oz face weight, high density(very short nap but can't remember #) 4 twists. I would put that carpet up against almost any carpet out there. But the numbers suck. How could that carpet be any good? Because the mill that makes it has incredible quality control. Only use top of the line everything and is known for their long lasting commercial carpets. It's been down for 10+ years and looks brand new and i have 4 boys. So now that i've shot down the entire thoery of how your buying carpet what do are you supposed to take from this? Your not doing it wrong. You are trying to take the information that is available and apply it to your purchase the best way any consumer can. My point is if you only rely on those things you'll ignore someone that may be giving you information that is more important becasue your hung up on them not giving you numbers. Akron - sounds like you put it perfectly. All I have is the numbers to go on since the sales support at all places is average, at best. Although I'll detail my recent lowes experience below. But to date, I havent encountered anyone that will supply that level of knowledge that you just gave. Makes complete sense that there are intangibles that matter just as much! The good thing is that for the most part im comparing similar carpets. I'm looking at plush and textured carpets. no frieze, no berber, no velvet, no patterned type carpets. Also, only looking at nylon. But, as you state, there are SO many nylons out there, it makes it tough. So, for the most part, the numbers do help me out. As far as your point on the big boxes, I completely agree. I have decided to go with the big box simply b/c of selection, availability of information, and price. The Lowes $199 special is very good it seems. And b/c of this forum, I've been able to ask the right questions to uncover any hidden costs. So far with the Lowes deal I will have to pay $7 extra per step, and approx $2.30 lf for binding of the stair runner. Also, I grilled them hard on their estimate, saying it will be very difficult to get me to pay anything that is over the estimate that should've been caught at the time of the est. I worked with a great salesperson over the weekend at Lowes. I felt she was being very honest with me. She said that the estimate is the true cost for all intents and purposes. I've found that the 2 Home Depots in my area are a little limited in their info and their sales staff. Just luck of the draw, time of the year, market, etc that its working that way for me. Lowes has had the best prices, deals, and service to date so I will most likely purchase through them. Although if I can get more details on a few of the HD carpets that lacked the info, I may change my mind. As Im the techy type, like you mention, here's the list of carpets I have looked at, across 4 stores. most I have numbers for: Beaulieu of America Oceans Edge (6364) Bradford Farm Kathy Ireland - Platinum ka147 Mowhawk Alladin Seaview (8001) Mowhawk Alladin Haley Court East (0108d) Mowhawk Tactesse BCF Mowhawk Wear-dated soft touch Mowhawk SOS Bangor Mowhawk Lisse Nylon hypo Mowhawk SOS Lincolnwood Mowhawk n/a Mowhawk Tactesse BCF Mowhawk SOS Daphne Mowhawk Tactesse BCF Mowhawk Elite Royalty Pikes Peak (973) Shaw Constantinople (748hd) Shaw Sunridge II (251d) Shaw Ritz (243hd) Shaw Backstage (722hd) Shaw Trifecta 2 (741gd) Simi Valley q1942 Stainmaster Rare Gem Stainmaster Tessera S Stainmaster Kings Palace Stainmaster Dixie - Tower Bridge Stainmaster Hazelbrook (4663) Stainmaster Monique (5813) Stainmaster Florence (0113d) Stainmaster Dreamy (6468) Stainmaster Buy Stainmaster Tactesse Nylon Stevens Taj Mahal (5170) Stevens Tallamore (5263) Stevens Mt. McKinley (5358) I see your list of carpets and deem that you are an engineer. bheron, i wish i could spend 10 minutes with you in any store to help. We could easily narrow that mess down to 3 carpets in less than 5 minutes. Over 1/2 your list is incomplete information that no one would be able to find a carpet from. I'm assuming you have a more complete list somewhere else. But from what i do recognize, you have a broad spectrum of qualities and finished looks. (some of those are delustered yarns vs. highly reflective) This tells me you have not decided what you want your new carpet to look like overall. If you have decided on the big box (i still disagree for many reasons but understand, especially with your experience with the retailers you visited) i would recommend one of the Stainmaster carpets. Stainmaster is one of the few companies that will welcome a call from a consumer about a problem with their carpet. They have the best warranties in the business and stand behind them with very little complications. If their is a mill defect in your carpet, stainmaster will still handle the claim and settle up with the mill. If their is an installation problem... sorry your screwed. You should have known better than to go to a big box for top of the line installation. Obvious installation errors would need to go through the store. Thanks Akron! Yes, I have more info but wasnt sure if I tried to paste it in here what it would look like. FOr all of those carpets I have face weight, density, twist. I didnt capture the type of nylon, which I wish I had done. thats' great info about stainmaster. something i cant get anywhere. on your recommendation, I will go to one more local installer that I think is close to my work. see what kind of experience I get. Buy your carpet anywhere but only trust your investment to a CFI Certified Installer!!! Try www.CFIinstallers.com and in the Find an Installer pane, type in your zipcode. Call several and the installers with the higher level of certification, usually will cost you more. If I go Home Depot or Lowes, they pick the installer. I guess they may or may not be CFI certified. I will have to ask. If I like this next local place I may go with them. I will ask them too. Last question Bheron, Where do you live? City and State. King of Prussia, PA (yes, thats really the town!) Ok, today's update (this really is turning into some sort of obsession for me) I visited another local retail store (non big box). I have to say, as I pulled up I felt like, ah, this is what everyone's talking about. the place was big, clean, filled with sales people. good feeling. when i walked in it was obvious I came to a good place. lots of product and people. however..... as soon as I meet my first sales person, and browse the first selection of carpet, I quickly realized it wasn't going to be any different than the other local place I visited. this place seemed to have top quality carpet. and this is all they do - carpet. but, once again, little to no information was supplied and the guy just assumed i would pick any of the carpets without any info!! most of the carpet, not all, had price per sf info listed. but, lift up the sample and minimal info. none of the 3 numbers im looking for. i could find out the material and that was it. i told the salesperson i was interested in a quality carpet, made out of nylon, something basic in a cut pile. he immediately steered me over to the section on sale.The brand is Karistan which sounds like a top quality, and looked it too. When I ask him about the 3 magic numbers and make it clear I need something like that to base a decision on, he only says, oh we dont have that b/c we're not a big box. so i ask him to help me decide between all the different prices of carpet - ie: why is this one $4/sf and this one $6/sf. well, its basically the amount of material used, pretty much. Oooookay. then......i ask him how their pricing works, in other words, what's included in these per/sf prices? well, to get that, he needed to do a full estimate for me. he needed my name, address, phone number. fine, i gave him that and all of the room SFs that I had with me this time. After 5 mins he comes back with a full blown quote to do one room. still, when i ask how it works, like is it $199 per room for install, etc, is pading included or is that a SF basis, steps, etc, i get a very vauge, well, it all depends on the quote. i can do more quotes for you, i can quote you the whole house if you want. well! duh. thats what Im trying to get at!! so, not only can i get zero info on the carpet except the make and model, they're not divulging anything on how they price the deals!!! geez. again, nice showroom, what seemed to be quality carpet,and nice salesperson. but PLEASE, how frustrating it is for an educated shopper. its like they just want to live in the past when the internet didnt exist and the shopper was so less equipped. im starting to feel like this industry is a big shag, I mean sham I'm on hold right now with Karistan and have been for 15 mins. Im pretty sure if i get someone they wont give me the numbers. again, i know the numbers arent everything, but its the one sure way i can compare this local place with the deals Im getting at the big box. Im hoping to get the specs of the carpet i was quoted on, find some comparable carpets or even the same one at the big box, and compare the overall price and service expected. but, once again, im feeling helpless with the local places. once again Im leaning towards big box, and i wont feel one bit bad for the local place if it goes out of business b/c of the big boxes. thanks for reading if you've been crazy enough to follow along this long! EDIT: just got off the phone with the contact at Karistan. Very nice woman who answered and tried to help. but i quickly learned that the place i went to is selling through a private label, which i guess basically means their own secret name. so, in the end, there's NO way to find out exactly what makes up this carpet except for the material and how it feels to the touch! One more dead end! bheron.... Mmmm ok, first off, no carpet guy in any way shape or form...clear? ARE WE CLEAR??? Crystal? lol Have you investigated the programs where you buy online directly from the mill and they provide a list of installers? I think they are still out there, I know they were a while back in VA. Not trying to add anything to your calculations. I saw in another post (or maybe here) where CDR said he buys most of his stuff online. Theres no stigma with that. You pay shipping whether its retail or wholesale, one way or another. Just throwing it out there.... gunguy - LOL! had to read that a few times. to your quesiton, thats a great point. i never thought of that option b/c i guess i didnt think it existed. that would probably be a great option if i could find one. i could decide on my product and then contact a certified installer which i know are in my area! i'll have to look around.... OK- new carpet brand in the mix. Karastan. NOTHING AT HOME DEPOT WILL COMPARE TO KARASTAN. I don't care how good the numbers are, what they are, or if you ever get them. Karistan is better. As far as the salespeople at most retail stores- you're running into probably the majority norm. To really put it out there - there is only one personality type that truly cares about the technicals and you are it. And there is not a lot of you so salespeople aren't usually trained in the technicals to the degree you people expect. The salespeople that are going to know this kind of stuff are the technical junkies themselves. And there are not a lot of us out there either. They are trained on look, feel, price, warranty, keeping-it-simple. Who buys a floor based on technicals?! Engineers, accountants and cheap husbands. Yep, I have to say and I hope you don't take this wrong, but hope you take it as being funny. If you were my client, I would have fired you by now. Your way overthinking this and wasting a lot of peoples time. I have to say, actually, I couldnt agree more! I guess I just like to get to the bottom of things. I like to figure out what and why. I'm also not just a techy but I'm in the e-commerce marketing business, so i study people's buying habits. Well, at the very least, I can ay I've learned a heck of a lot no matter what happens. Thank you all for your help. I'll be sure to post one final time with my actual purchase and experience (if anyone cares). are you kidding?! As much time as i've spent on this thread i gotta know how the story ends! CDW - You couldn't have said it any better than that. I'm back everyone. I thought, as promised, that I'd follow on on the outcome of my project. In short, I'm now enjoying a great new carpet installed in my home. Here's what happened for anyone that's still interested: - I had Lowes come out, measure my place, and give me an estimate. The old man who came out was grouchy, slow, and actually very rude. I was about to ask him to leave if he kept up the comments. Lowes charges $35 for the visit that's applied to your order should you use them. - I decided, at the last second, to have the local installer come out and do the same. Had to do it on a night when my wife wasnt around b/c she wouldve KILLED me for bringing in another person to measure our house. - In the end I am so very glad I did that. WHile the Lowes carpet and installation price was well below market and a great deal, the old man measured out 1,800 sf of carpet needed which, obviously affects the end price. - The owner of the local installer came out last minute, after hours. He's a guru that promises to use every bit of waste carpet he can. He came up with 1,300 SF of carpet! Well, that dramatic difference in SF was the difference. - I was able to install some great carpet - how could I not evaluate the numbers. - Lowes was going to install a mowhawk stainmaster carpet with a 46 ounce weight, 4.7 twist and 2,366 density. Very nice carpet. - The local installer, for the same price essentially, installed a Shaw Spacious Living II 78 ounce, 5.1 twist, 3,995 density carpet! Oh and did I mention that the Lowes guy called me a total of 12 times over a few weeks to keep following up on my decision? The local installer got the carpet in and installed in a very reasonable timeframe at the exact price the quoted me at. There are more details but hopefully this feedback is enough to say thank you all for your help! My obsessing and all of your feedback - and patience - resulted in me getting a quality product and installation! Thanks all! Could PM me the name of the local installer you used? I live in the Lower Merion Township and don't trust the big box places. Were you happy with the results so far after the installation? Hey, no problem. I'll PM you. so far so good - we dont have much traffic, just two adults, a dog and a 1 year old that just started walking. im more impressed with the actual carpet - held up great so far (8 months) and seems impossible to permanently stain I think I put this in my post, but the they beat out the big box is b/c of they knew what they were doing. the old grumpy guy sent by lowes measured 1800 SF of carpet. the owner of the local place measured himself and came out with 1300 and had hardly zero waste carpet. So, lowes had a lower $/Sf and installation cost, but it didnt matter when they tried to sell me 500 SF of carpet I didnt need! I will use this place again when we finish some other rooms. Just wanted to chime in on this thread, as I'm going through the same exact torture when trying to buy carpet (incidentally, I'm also an engineer). Making an educated decision in the carpet business seems to be an impossibility. The industry makes it impossible to compare carpet from one store to another. From what I can tell, the only places where it’s relatively easy to get some technical specifications on any carpet is at Home Depot or Lowe’s. I have had zero luck getting technical specs outside of these store, doesn’t matter if it’s Empire, Carpet One, or the two local shops I tried. The stores always claim that they would have to call the mill. Really, does it change that frequently? Why don’t they have that information on hand already? None of the local guys get back to me with the proper info either, but phone calls to see if I’m ready to order are in no short supply. One store showed me “Painter’s Pallet” by Mohawk. Google provided some wholesale prices from carpet express, but nothing in terms of specs. As an engineer, I’m finding myself hung up on knowing the “specs.” Sure, some might not find it that important, but I don’t intend to buy any carpet when I don’t have that info. Asking me to feel the difference - that's just not going to happen. Like the initiator of this thread, I'm using the same big 3 (twist, face weight, density) and I do realize that there is more to a carpet than that (as was also pointed out in this thread). That’s why my experience has been frustrating so far. I need just over 1000 sq ft installed and have all the furniture out and have already done the take-up and prep (as I knew I needed to do some sub-floor repairs). Rolling the dice with a HD or Lowe’s installer is not something I care to do and in addition I know I’ll be paying an arm and a leg for labor and the likely over estimation of goods. It’s plain silly to think that either store will only pay an installer $199 to carpet 1000 sq ft. The true install cost is buried in the price of the carpet. Aside from one 15' room, my install is simple (very basic, three seams, existing tacks, no steps, no furniture, no take-up) I would like to limit the cost of install to the basic average of $4 sq yard (that’s the research I’ve done anyways). However, HD and Lowe’s won’t break out their hidden labor costs, and the small companies don’t like to pony up carpet specs. It’s a lose, lose for the customer. I'll also make one last comment on an experience I had with over estimation. I had Empire come out and provide an estimate a month or so ago. They number the fellow called in to get price info for was 1400 sq ft. As noted above, my figures came to 1000, which includes roll size and 10% for scrap! So why the big difference? Well, for starters, Empire only had 12' rolls. So I believe they doubled the square footage to account for the 3' run that would have to pair up to that roll. That matches up with the single seam he was describing (instead of T seams which I would expect for maximizing use of the the 12' roll). Either way, it pays to know some of the technicalities of lay out carpet and also to do your own measurements! Hopefully, I'll be settling on a final decision this week... it's a good thing I'm single though, living on sub-floor for a month would be difficult otherwise :) Great feedback. Also good to know I'm not the only one out there. In the end, my determination paid off and a year later I'm very happy with my carpet. One thing to add I dont know if I did before - the reason I was told that its so hard to determine the specs is that most retailers private label the names. So, Mowhawk may manufacture a product and call it Product A but then the store will label it Painter’s Pallet. They claim its difficult to link it back but I dont buy it. To me its simple - if they provided that data then it takes away their value to the customer. An antiquated model that no longer works for all of us. Same thing applies to mattresses. Companies are notorious for labeling the same exact mattress with 15 different series so it's impossible to price match competitors. Bheron - I'm going through exactly what you're going through, although you are about 1 month ahead of me. (oh, and I do know KOP, PA, as I grew up in Berwyn, and got lost in the Mall when I was a kid). We want to lay about 1,100 sq. feet in a Family/Living, MBR and L-shaped hallway. One spec. I did not see discussed in this thread was a carpet's pattern match - the little colorations in a sample that actually form a pattern in large areas. The way I understand it, the smaller a pattern match (expressed in _ inches x _ inches), the more tightly a carpet can be layed out on a standard 10' roll, with less overage. At HD, my wife and I picked out a Stainmaster carpet with a 36x36 pattern, which (understandably) leads to more overage, due to the pattern match loss. We rented the sample to take back to our house to compare with existing flooring,walls, etc., and decided that ,although the sample was nice, the pattern was possibly too garish for our tastes. Other pressing matters with the new home have put a hold on our research, but we are ready to get back into it. We're intending to lay the new carpet over existing ceramic tile, and would like to save the nice tile for future owners, so we're looking at adhesive (Chemrex or PAM method) for the tack strip installation (no nails here).This is presenting its own set of problems, as it'll have to be manual stretching, as powerkickers will potentially damage the tile. I'll follow this thread to see where you end up....oh, I'm an engineer as well, so I have a tendency to over-analize everything (which to me makes sense for this big of an investment). Thank you BHeron you are a carpet buying hero. Thousands try to wade through this quagmire of carpet choices and options every day.

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